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To: dan@engrg.uwo.ca (Dan Corrin), bfwong@ocf.berkeley.edu (Raven Blackburn),
        anthony@cs.pitt.edu (Michael Anthony Kapolka),
        mcknight@f104.n170.z1.fidonet.org (Chuck McKnight),
        traveller@fantasci.uucp (Joseph "Jo" E Poplawski),
        jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com (James T. Perkins)
Subject: TML Bundle #232: Msgs 2833-2852
Reply-To: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Precedence: bulk
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 91 21:00:16 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com>
Status: R


TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Sep  8 21:00:10 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #232: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2833  28-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: More firearms stuff << > From: waylancm@m
2834  27-Aug-91 whservd!gsw@att.a Re: (2823) Re: physics nullifiers and 2810: A
2835  28-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au More K'Kree ships << 
2836  29-Aug-91 cmaddox@imsa.edu  Minor Correction on >Some more on standard gu
2837  29-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Let's try that again... K'kree starships << O
2838  29-Aug-91 George William He Vehicles FTP site minor change... << The ocf.
2839  30-Aug-91 James T Perkins   Happy Fourth Birthday, TML (very belated) << 
2840  31-Aug-91 Marc Alexandrovic Advanced weapons, etc << In TML nightly Volum
2841  03-Sep-91 cmaddox@imsa.edu  Re: TML nightly: Msgs 2840-2840 V25#4 << In T
2842  04-Sep-91 Marc Alexandrovic Beretta 92F, Traveller application of same :-
2843  04-Sep-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Ammo with lot's o letters << > From: Marc Ale
2844  04-Sep-91 "Robert S. Dean"  Back from the Worldcon << I'm back from the W
2845  04-Sep-91 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN Food for thought << For those of you who wond
2846  04-Sep-91 bart@cs.uoregon.e Tech Levels << In TML biweekly V19#5 msg 2845
2847  05-Sep-91 Marc Alexandrovic Guns, laser guns, laser rangefinders, designa
2848  05-Sep-91 mikew@eecs.ee.pdx 92F'd to death << Getting way off the subject
2849  05-Sep-91 wew@naucse.cse.na 92f and guns in general and TML prob << One o
2850  06-Sep-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Local guns << > From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.
2851  06-Sep-91 CDF1@PSUVM.PSU.ED New mail address for me << For those who are 
2852  06-Sep-91 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN Laser sights and Tech Levels << Marc, thanks 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2833
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: More firearms stuff
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 91 13:13:57 MET DST

> From: waylancm@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Craig Waylan)
> Subject: (2829) More firearms stuff
> 
> Something that a lot of ordinary people have found out(that the police and
> military won't notice 'till the end of the century at least! :) is that
> ammo technology has changed *a lot* in the past decade or two.

  The various agreements on inhuman weapons (the first of which outlawed 
exploding bullets of less than a certain calibre, btw) doubtlessly has something
to do with it. I assume that these are in effect in the Imperium too.

> Recently, however, most companies have gotten a *lot* better with their
> production techniques, as well as having much more creative R&D people.

  My knowledge on this comes from articles in the military press (like 
International Defence Review or Military Technology), and I must admit that
when I first heard of for example the Glaser round, it sounded like a good
idea. 
  However: The various incidents where certain of these 'new-style' rounds
have behaved in a different way that advertised indicates that the technology
isn't mature enough yet. Wound-ballistics are more a combination of art and
opinion than science, which is highlited in the fact that there are as many
opinions on which fluid or gel to use as there are experts.

  Weapons are dangerous to the user either when the user is stupid or when the 
weapon behave in an unpredictabe way. Since user stupidity can be prevented 
through training, unpredictability is the greatest remaining hazard.

  These are the main reasons I've put DS at TL 9 and higher, HP at TL 6+ and 
small-calibre (less than 10mm) HE at 10+

  (A tip to the Refs who's PC's like to use funny ammo: what do the criminal
and civil law say? :)

> I'll leave
> it to you Physics types to do the calculations, but I'm pretty sure that
> gauss weapons, with their 4mm needle bullets, are horribly overrated. They
> may have a small enough cross-section to penetrate heavy armor, but they
> won't do much damage once they get there.

  That depends in their contruction. Sintered tungsten penetrators like those
that were used in early (ie 50's to 70's) discarding sabot tank rounds have
a tendency to disintegrate into a cloud of tungsten shrapnel just after 
penetrating the armour. And if the rounds are done as old 'Mercenary' 
described them, with a 1mm tungsten core coated with a HP lead jacket, they
might work on lightly armored targets too (the word for this should be TSS -
Target Shredding Sabot, as gun data in the 2300 'Backdoor' adventure)

>* waylancm@mentor.cc.purdue.edu  *  It's just my job, five days a week..."    *

- -bertil-

P  Efate							      240-1121
   PC's use non-pc ammo! Public outranged! "Reopen Gash prison!" demonstrators
   demand.
- -- 
"Det a"r en Svensk grej. Du skulle inte fo"rsta^..."


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2834
From: whservd!gsw@att.att.COM
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 91 14:45 EDT
Subject: Re:  (2823) Re: physics nullifiers and 2810: A Discussion from GEnie

Robert S. Dean writes:

> For Traveller, we basically have to accept the Jumpdrive and the grav plate
> in order to stay with the game.  My aesthetic preference is that new 
> technologies not be multiplied to cover what were probably intended as
> approximations in the rules.

I never suggested that we should "throw technology at everything," but you
must admit that the physics problems presented by Traveller go FAR deeper
than jumpspace and anti-grav.

If you don't change something, then spaceships are getting a whole lot of
FREE energy right now.  Furthermore, this means that any Tom, Dick, or
Harry with a spaceship has the capability of single-handedly destroying a
planet.

You can either change the way maneuver drives work (quite drastically, I
might add), change the power source (this basically means consuming LARGE
quantities of fuel, even with 100% energy conversion), or accept that there
is some different set of physical laws which are being applied here (you
don't have to explain them if you don't want to).

> What Traveller really needs is a set of Designer's Notes, to tell us what
> sort of things they skimped over and why.

Agreed.

> I also tend to see most of these new explanations for rules as creating more
> problems than they solve.

Fine, don't explain them.  That's the way things work.  Period.

If you MUST have an explanation for things, then you will have to accept a
different physics or change Traveller.

If you have a concern about a particular explanation being inconsistent, then
say so and we can discuss it.

For example, the 'mass neutralizing' explanation seems at first to be
inconsistent, since you could just strap a small rocket onto a spaceship
that has its mass reduced (actually, the rocket's mass would probably be
reduced as well, but this just means that the fuel must be ignited AFTER
it returns to "normal" mass).  What if external forces tended to bring
the ship back to "normal" mass, however?  In fact, the 'neutralization'
could be inherently related to the propulsion mechanism itself.  The ship
might "warp" space in some direction (say, along the "mass" axis), using
this "warp" to provide propulsion.  Any force that acts on mass might also
tend to "warp" it back.

I also feel that involving inertial compensators integrally into the
"maneuver drive equation" is a mistake, but the main reason for this is
that it makes it impossible to have a ship with a maneuver drive and no
inertial compensators, even though there are examples of such a ship.

> However, because it is so detailed, my aesthetic sense is once again offended
> when someone suggests to me that thousands of megawatts of power can be pumped
> into some sort of mysterious agility generator, when the system requires me
> to specify every piece of electrical equipment down to the cigarette lighter.
> (-:  Where is this agility generator hiding, and how much does it weigh per
> kl? (-:  If the inertial compensators are responsible for agility, then
> the rules should tell me that a ship that has none has no agility, right?

If you accept that inertial compensators are integral to using the maneuver
drive, then this last case doesn't exist, since all ships will have SOME
inertial compensators (I've already stated that I'd rather not use inertial
compensators this way -- I also think it is easier to comprehend and more
fitting with the rules to say it is all handled by the maneuver drive).

> Ah well, what can I say?  The current rules are just not very well thought out
> in a lot of important ways.  (All cargo is worth the same amount per kl?  Makes
> for a very dull merchant game, let me tell you...I'm tossing that out and
> using Book 2 again for the moment...)  The strength of Traveller is in the
> background.

Agreed, although I might not agree with you on everything that classifies
as "important."  They do tend to waver some on the level of hand-waving,
however, specifying some things to minute detail while ignoring the physics
problems that other things cause.  I think MegaTraveller tried to raise the
overall "hand-waving" level.

Jerry Williams
gsw@gummo.att.com

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2835
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1991 21:06 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: More K'Kree ships


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2836
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1991 08:27:27 -0600
From: cmaddox@imsa.edu
Subject: Minor Correction on >Some more on standard guns and ammo

In TML nightly	Wed Aug 28 20:31:48 PDT 1991	Volume 25 : Issue 1 Marc
Alexandrovich Volovic states:
> 
>  It cannot be said that the Glock is the least advanced - indeed, it is
>MORE advanced than either the Jericho or the CZ and possible more
>advanced than the Smith and Wesson. Of the guns, two (S&W and Glock) are
>US manufacture, one is Israeli (Jericho) and the one (CZ) is Czech.
> 
I believe that you'll find that the Glock is manufactured in Austria (at
least originally).  I would not _conclude_ that the Glock is more advanced
weapon than the others, but it does use a more advanced material for the
majority of it's components (Slide, Reciever, Magazine, etc.).  

The Glock has a radiply growing number of fans, and has had a number of
highly favorable reviews recently.  It may be the wave of the future but
all of the weapons above (and many others - Such as the Browning Hi-Power,
Beretta M92F, Taurus PT-92 & PT-99, H&K P7 Series, etc.) have advantages
and disadvantages when compared to one another.  I would say that the Glock
is an advanced weapon and it compares favorably to the other weapons
mentioned.

Chuck

Chuck Maddox    	       	       	       	       	cmaddox@imsa.edu
Computer Technician     	       	       	       	(708)-801-6015    	
Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy
  	       	


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2837
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1991 14:51 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Let's try that again... K'kree starships

Ooops!  Transmission error!
More Stuff

K'kree Courier TL15 "Kahk'rik'kreng" Class

CraftID:  K'kree Courier TL15, MCr 1780.715
Hull:     (5400/13500) Disp=6000, Config=7SL, Armor=40G,
          Load=30147, Unload=32878
Power:    (57/114) Fusion=15320MW, Dur=30/90
Loco:     (108/216) Maneuver=1, (216/432) Jump=3, MaxAccel=2.56,
          NOE=190, Cruise=750, Max=1000, Agility=2
Comm:     Radio=System*2, Maser=System
Sensors:  A-EMS(FarOrb), P-EMS(Interstel)
          ActObjScn=Rout ActObjPin=Rout PasEnScn=Rout
Off:      HPoints=15
          Missile=x02    PLaser=xx2
          Batt      10             10
          Bear      10             10
Def:      DefDM+5   SCaster=xx3
                    Batt      20
                    Bear      20
Control:  Computer Mod3*3, LrgHoloDisp*1, HoloHUD*21, HoloLink*34
Accom:    Crew=44(Command=5, Bridge=8, Engineer=8+5robots,
          Gunner=7, Maintain=9, Stewards=5, Medic=1)
          Passenger=34, 'Staterooms'=77,
          BasicEnv, BasicLS, ExtendLS, G-Plates, I-Comps
Other:    Fuel=21715kl(1 jump-3+30dy), Cargo=1211Kl,
          Scoops, Fuel Pure=57.2hr, ObjSize=Lrg, EmLevel=Mod
Remarks:  The standard K'kree courier as found in alien module 2.
     There are five engineering robots (Master +4 slaves as found
in 101 Robots) in the crew (counted above reducing the organic
engineering crew to 8.
     Note that there are no 'staterooms' as there is only
one communal room for the entire crew.  An allowance of 648Kl is
made for each K'kree aboard at a cost of .8Mcr (Twice the cost of
a normal stateroom and 12 times the size.   Fuel purification
takes 2 standard K'Kree days.



K'kree Frigate TL15 "Rr'xighik'ker" Class

CraftID:  K'kree Frigate TL15, MCr 1668.47
Hull:     (4500/11250) Disp=5000, Config=7SL, Armor=40G,
          Load=304665, Unload=49183
Power:    (119/238) Fusion=31999MW, Dur=20/60
Loco:     (360/720) Maneuver=3, (90/180) Jump=1, NOE=190,
          Cruise=750, Max=1000, MaxAccel=5.7, Agility=5
          CombatMaxAccel=3.66, CombatAgility=3
Comm:     Radio=System*2, Maser=System
Sensors:  A-EMS(FarOrb)*2, P-EMS(Interstel)*2, EMS-Jam(FarOrb)
          Densiometer=(1km*1, 250m*1) Neutrino=10kw*2
          ActObjScn=Rout ActObjPin=Rout
          PasObjScn=Rout PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEnScn=Simp  PasEnPin=Rout
Off:      HPoints=50
          Missile=x02    BLaser=xx2
          Batt      10             10
          Bear      10             10
Def:      DefDM+6   SCaster=xx3
                    Batt      20
                    Bear      20
Control:  Computer Mod3*3, LrgHoloDisp*2, HoloHUD*13, HoloLink*13
Accom:    Crew=44(Command=12, Bridge=7, Engineer=7+5robots,
          Gunner=38, Maintain=3, Stewards=2, Troops=20, Medic=1)
          'Staterooms'=44,
          BasicEnv, BasicLS, ExtendLS, G-Plates, I-Comps
Other:    Fuel=14430kl(1 jump-1+20dy), Cargo135090Kl,
          Scoops, Fuel Pure=28.6hr, ObjSize=Lrg, EmLevel=Mod
Remarks:  The standard K'kree Frigate as found in alien module 2.
     There are five engineering robots (Master +4 slaves as found
in 101 Robots) in the crew (counted above reducing the organic
engineering crew to 7.
     Note that there are no 'staterooms' as there is only
one communal room for the entire crew.  The above is considered
double occupancey.  Only military personnel are carried (no
females or children)
     During combat, power for the engines is diverted to the beam
laser turrets at the cost of some performance.  Fuel purification
takes 1 standard K'Kree day.
     The ship has 1000 tons left for customization.  Above it is
counted as cargo.  Variants allow the carriage of 40 more troops,
(double occupancy) or vehicles.

Recently there was a bit in the trav news service about a fleet
of K'kree warships moving through the Spinward Marches on a
mission to recover a lost trade delegation before the Marches
were completely cut off from the Two Thousand Worlds.

Scott Kellogg

BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
The TML fails the Aug 1991 trav trivia quiz!
The title of Double adventure five is:       (Drum roll)

"The Chamax Plague/Horde!"
Sorry there are no second chances!

What The Horde is happening to the TML?  That was an easy one!
Don Hordo will not read off the list of prizes!

The TML has let loose a horde of puns...

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2838
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 91 22:31:38 -0700
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Vehicles FTP site minor change...


	The ocf.berkeley.edu vehicl list FTP site now has the vehicle
descriptions in the pub/games/traveller folder rather than pub/traveller .
	It's also about a week behind installing some updates from Rob
Dean ( 8-) but that will be taken care of.

- -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2839
Subject: Happy Fourth Birthday, TML (very belated)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 91 15:10:23 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


I suppose I should finally write my yearly TML Administrivia summary.
One of our largest contributors, Rob Dean, has continually bugged me
about it, so I guess I should get the monkey off my back today.	 Now I
know how Richard feels when he puts off the TML turn composition.  :-)

June 16, 1991 marks the fourth anniversary of the Traveller Mailing
List.  Four years before, I posted a message to rec.games.frp asking if
people would be interested in a mailing list to discuss Traveller, and
here we are!

Statistics: As of 30 August 1991, there are 279 member addresses on the
active list: 6 are on temporary hiatus, 206 receive the nightly digest,
64 receive the biweekly digest, and 6 receive the archive bundles; there
are also 18 prospective new members awaiting address confirmation.

Typically for prospective new members I send them one hello.  If I don't
hear back from them in a long time, I try once more, then forget about
ever reaching them.  Cruel but necessary on a 280-member list.

Approximate subscriber breakdown by physical location:

    North America:
	USA: total 186
	    ?? 18, AK 1, AL 3, AR 1, AZ 4, CA 29, CN 1, CO 5, DL 1,
	    FL 6, GA 4, HI 1, IA 1, ID 3, IL 5, IN 4, LA 1, KY 2, MA 10,
	    MD 4, MI 8, MN 3, MO 4, MS 2, NC 2, ND 2, NH 2, NJ 10, NM 3,
	    NV 3, NY 5, OH 5, OK 1, OR 12, PA 4, TX 2, UT 2, VA 3, WA 8,
	    WI 1
	Canada: total 11
		Ontario 9, Prince Edward Island 1, Newfoundland 1
    South America: total 2
	Chile: 1	Costa Rica: 1
    Europe: total 34
	Norway: 2	Germany: 1	Denmark: 2
	Iceland: 1	Sweden: 8	Finland: 1
	UK: total 19
		Unknown 7, England 9, Ireland 2, Scotland 1
    Asia:
	Israel: 1
    Australia:
	Australia: 3
    Antarctica:
	1 (honorary member)
    Unknown: 22

    I'll bet this is not 100% accurate, but it is suggestive of the
    general member distribution.

List contributions by month (yes, the graph is sideways):

    Jun 89  37 | *********
    Jul	    49 | ************
    Aug	    48 | ************
    Sep	    64 | ****************
    Oct	    94 | ***********************
    Nov	    63 | ***************
    Dec	    35 | ********
    Jan 90 120 | ******************************
    Feb	   201 | **************************************************
M   Mar	    74 | ******************
o   Apr	   101 | *************************
n   May	    48 | ************
t   Jun	    58 | **************
h   Jul	    73 | ******************
    Aug	    68 | *****************
    Sep	    87 | *********************
    Oct	    66 | ****************
    Nov	   234 | *******************************************************+
    Dec	   128 | ********************************
    Jan 91  89 | **********************
    Feb	    63 | ***************
    Mar	    66 | ****************
    Apr	    61 | ***************
    May	    88 | **********************
    Jun	    91 | **********************
    Jul	   221 | *******************************************************
    Aug	  ~128 | ********************************
	       ++----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
		0   20	 40   60   80  100  120	 140  160  180	200  220
			Number of messages submitted

    Jan 90: Hot topics were the opening of Richard Johnson's TML PBEM
    and starship design rule revamping.

    Nov 90: Hot topics were Scott Kellogg designs (posted by Stephen
    Smith) and Metlay's TDR announcement.

    Jul 91: A whole bunch of hot topics - meson sites, GEnie gateway,
    starship designs and economics, autofire/guns, physics, and kinetic
    terrorism.

Archives:
			87-88	88-89	89-90	90-91	TOTAL
			------- ------- ------- ------- -------
	# of messages	150	270	956	1113	2832
	Msgs/week	2.9	5.2	18.4	21.4	12.9
	avg M size (KB) 3.9	4.6	3.2	3.8	3.8
	# of bundles	13	28	69	94	232
	Volume (MB)	0.6	1.3	3.1	4.2	10.6

		Year summaries are from July 1 to July 1

Top 20 posters by # of messages (1 Jul 90 to 1 Jul 91):

    Rob Dean 155	    James Perkins 41	    Paul Dale 16
    Richard Johnson 70	    George Herbert 40	    Brent Woods 15
    Bertil Jonell 61	    T L Hayes 30	    Alan Huscroft 14
    Stephen Smith 60	    Dan Corrin 22	    Mark Gellis 14
    Mark Cook 59	    James Baranski 18	    Paul Baughman 13
    metlay 58		    Marc Volovic 17	    Peter Berghold 12
    Adrian Hurt 41	    Jo Jaquinta 16

Top 20 posters by volume, KB (1 Jul 90 to 1 Jul 21):

    Rob Dean 716	    Dave Boddie 103	    Jo Jaquinta 57
    Richard Johnson 421	    Adrian Hurt 100	    Dan Corrin 53
    Mark Cook 244	    T L Hayes 90	    Paul Dale 43
    Bertil Jonell 231	    Burton Choinski 85	    James Baranski 40
    metlay 145		    Brent Woods 73	    Peter Berghold 38
    Stephen Smith 120	    Marc Volovic 70	    Joel Lovell 34
    James Perkins 112	    George Herbert 70

In the last two years the TML has exploded onto the internet, with
several FTP archive and special interest sites for Archives, Starship
Designs, and software.	TML archives on MS-DOS floppies have been
ordered by about 5 TMLers.  Experiments at discussion subgroups for
Trade and Commerce, Star System Database, and "Traveller Done Right"
took off wildy and then foundered due to reduced interest.  Another
experiment - Richard's TML PBEM - was and continues to be a big success.
Also, Jo Jaquinta's Sector/System/Wrold generation software continues to
be more and more detailed as time goes by.

The administration of the TML has pretty much remained unchanged,
undergoing evolutionary change to the shell/awk/sed scripts which I use
to run the TML.	 The TML moved from a VAX 11/785, dadla.la.tek.com, to a
Sun SparcStation 1, metolius.wr.tek.com.  Tektronix finally granted
indeirect internet access to its employees, so with the aid of Dan
Corrin I am ocassionally found doing extra organizational effort at the
sunbane ftp site.

Are there changes coming up in the adminstration of the TML? Perhaps.
If I can ever unbury myself from my many personal and work commitments,
I would like to completely rewrite the list/archive administration
software into a coherent, portable package.  Also, Tek management is
promising to move everyone in the Walker Road site back into Beaverton
sometime in the nebulous future, so there may be some TML down time when
this eventuality comes about.

If you can think of any way to make this list more useful, I'd like to
hear your suggestions (even if they are "be more prompt, James!").
Thanks everybody for being a part of this list! Remember you don't need
to be a contributor to be welcome here.

James

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2840
From: Marc Alexandrovich Volovic <mav@cs.huji.ac.il>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 91 01:48:23 PDT
Subject: Advanced weapons, etc

 
In TML nightly Volume 25 Issue 2 cmaddox@imsa.edu states:
 
>I believe that you'll find that the Glock is manufactured in Austria (at
>least originally).  I would not _conclude_ that the Glock is more advanced
>weapon than the others, but it does use a more advanced material for the
>majority of it's components (Slide, Reciever, Magazine, etc.).
>
>The Glock has a radiply growing number of fans, and has had a number of
>highly favorable reviews recently.  It may be the wave of the future but
>all of the weapons above (and many others - Such as the Browning Hi-Power,
>Beretta M92F, Taurus PT-92 & PT-99, H&K P7 Series, etc.) have advantages
>and disadvantages when compared to one another.  I would say that the Glock
>is an advanced weapon and it compares favorably to the other weapons
>mentioned.
>
>Chuck
 
  Nowhere do I say that the Glock is the wave of the future. In fact
(but this is quite a personal opinion), I hope it will be gone as soon
as possible - I do not trust safty-less pistols.
 
  However, the Glock __IS__ more advanced than the CZ-75, both in
materials and in action. It is more advanced (in materials) than the
Jericho 941, possibly also in action.
 
  I did not compare the Glock to any other weapons for a simple reason -
I did not shoot the weapons in question. From my knowledge, the Beretta
92F is better off forgotten as son as possible (which, alas, it will
not).
 
  The market (and that what it is, after all - a market) drives pistol
fashions - ammo and action. The current trend in ammo is slow, heavy
rounds of calibre close to 10mm (i.e. 9mm to 10.4mm). It was once in
favour of light, fast rounds (namely - .38 Special FBI load) but got
over that. The current trend in pistols is high capacity, light, medium
sized pistols - Glock is a wonderful example of these.
 
  All such trends may be reversed, modified or changed at a 6-months
notice.
=======
In TML nightly Volume 25 Issue 1 d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se states:
 
>  The various agreements on inhuman weapons (the first of which outlawed
>exploding bullets of less than a certain calibre, btw) doubtlessly has
>something to do with it. I assume that these are in effect in the
>Imperium too.
 
  There are two answers to this. One - you have never encountered
players who like to say "I am loading APIDSPX now." Two - you have never
encountered people who like to say "Load phoshoru... er... soft
ordnance."
 
>  That depends in their contruction. Sintered tungsten penetrators like
>those that were used in early (ie 50's to 70's) discarding sabot tank
>rounds have a tendency to disintegrate into a cloud of tungsten shrapnel
>just after penetrating the armour. And if the rounds are done as old
>'Mercenary' described them, with a 1mm tungsten core coated with a HP
>lead jacket, they might work on lightly armored targets too (the word
>for this should be TSS - Target Shredding Sabot, as gun data in the 2300
>'Backdoor' adventure)
 
  I think that is a good idea. Maybe, softnose penetrators (oxymoron?)
too.
 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Marc A. Volovic -                       Procrastinator and do-no-gooder|
| mav@LIZARDO.huji.ac.il     Snail: P.O.B. 23114, 91230 Jerusalem, Israel|
|             Dept. of Linguistics, Hebrew University, Mt. Scopus        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                       Fencers do it with rapid thrusts                 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2841
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1991 10:12:29 -0600
From: cmaddox@imsa.edu
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 2840-2840 V25#4

In TML nightly	Sat Aug 31 20:30:17 PDT 1991	Volume 25 : Issue 4
Marc A. Volovic states that:

>In TML nightly Volume 25 Issue 2 cmaddox@imsa.edu states:
> 
>>I believe that you'll find that the Glock is manufactured in Austria (at
>>least originally).  I would not _conclude_ that the Glock is more advanced
>>weapon than the others, but it does use a more advanced material for the
>>majority of it's components (Slide, Reciever, Magazine, etc.).
>>
>>The Glock has a radiply growing number of fans, and has had a number of
>>highly favorable reviews recently.  It may be the wave of the future but
>>all of the weapons above (and many others - Such as the Browning Hi-Power,
>>Beretta M92F, Taurus PT-92 & PT-99, H&K P7 Series, etc.) have advantages
>>and disadvantages when compared to one another.  I would say that the Glock
>>is an advanced weapon and it compares favorably to the other weapons
>>mentioned.
>>
>>Chuck
> 
>  Nowhere do I say that the Glock is the wave of the future. In fact
>(but this is quite a personal opinion), I hope it will be gone as soon
>as possible - I do not trust safty-less pistols.

Quite true, you never stated that.  _I_ stated that "It may be the wave of
the future", then again it might not.                       ======

It would not suprise me if more manufacturers produce weapons with similar
material's.  I would hope that they do not emulate the safety-less action
of 
the Glock.  Like you, I do not trust safety-less weapons.  The H&K P7
series also is safety-less (technically) but you have to physically
activate the 
firing pin to fire the weapon.  
  
>  However, the Glock __IS__ more advanced than the CZ-75, both in
>materials and in action. It is more advanced (in materials) than the
>Jericho 941, possibly also in action.

While I will agree with you that the Glock is more advanced in materials 
than the weapons mentioned, I cannot agree that it is more advanced in 
it's action exactly for the reason that you mention, no safety.  

>  I did not compare the Glock to any other weapons for a simple reason -
>I did not shoot the weapons in question. From my knowledge, the Beretta
>92F is better off forgotten as son as possible (which, alas, it will
>not).

However, you did state "It cannot be said that the Glock is the least
advanced - indeed, it is MORE advanced than either the Jericho or the CZ
and possible more
advanced than the Smith and Wesson.".  This sounds like a comparison is
made between the Glock and the other weapons and the concusion is that the
Glock "is MORE advanced ...".  

I did state that the Glock was an advanced weapon and it compares favorably
with other weapons mentioned.  In the context that I was refering to, "a
number of reviews", it did well.  I can not definativly say how good of a
weapon the Glock is, since I have not had opportunity to fire one.  While
the materials it is made of are interesting, the safety-less operation is a
big disadvantage, IMHO.

I would be interested to hear what you have heard about the Beretta 92F.  I

would guess that what you have heard is not favorable?  But perhaps this is
beyond the scope of a Traveller discussion...

Chuck


Chuck Maddox    	       	       	       	       	cmaddox@imsa.edu
Computer Technician     	       	       	       	(708)-801-6015    	
Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy
  	       	


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2842
From: Marc Alexandrovich Volovic <mav@cs.huji.ac.il>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 91 02:09:41 PDT
Subject: Beretta 92F, Traveller application of same :-)

 
In TML nightly Volume 25 Issue 5 cmaddox@imsa.edu writes:
 
>I would be interested to hear what you have heard about the Beretta 92F. I
>would guess that what you have heard is not favorable? But perhaps this is
>beyond the scope of a Traveller discussion...
 
I think I can fit this into a TML message :-).
 
Firstly, the 92F is parallel to Imperial a 10mm SNUB (well, more or less).
 
The primary problem with Traveller equipment (ALL equipment, except
vehicles and ships) is that there is only ONE version of everything.
 
The US army had a competition for its primary handgun. The 92F won over
the Sig Sauer by virtue of a cheaper maintenance and spare parts deal.
It was then found out that the slide cracks and flies off the pistol
after about 4000 rounds have been fired. The US army instructed the
users to have the slides replaced after 3000 rounds have been fired. The
a slide broke after 3200 rounds have been fired. The US army cut the
replacement ceiling to 2000 rounds. Finally, the ceiling stood on 1000
rounds to replacement. The aforementioned saving went out of the gub
barrel :-).
 
In addition, a "feature" of the 92F adds to the "maintenance"
misadventure - both sights are part of the slide. Break one - slide must
be replaced. Cheap, eh?
 
Now - in Traveller we only have "10mm Auto." What about a "Intellarms
S-56 10mm Auto with gyrostabilizer?" Or a "BendArCo 23dm double magazine
10mm?" Or "Causative XMH-242 8mm, gyrostab, integral bipod, laser
rangefinder and designator?"
 
All Traveller equipment is "Pop from box. Unlimited warranty. Breaks on
GM intervention ONLY." What about lemons?! Eh!?
 
Marc

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2843
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Ammo with lot's o letters
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 91 15:10:17 MET DST

> From: Marc Alexandrovich Volovic <mav@cs.huji.ac.il>
> Subject: (2840) Advanced weapons, etc
>
> In TML nightly Volume 25 Issue 1 d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se states:
>  
> >  The various agreements on inhuman weapons (the first of which outlawed
> >exploding bullets of less than a certain calibre, btw) doubtlessly has
> >something to do with it. I assume that these are in effect in the
> >Imperium too.
>  
>   There are two answers to this. One - you have never encountered
> players who like to say "I am loading APIDSPX now." Two - you have never
> encountered people who like to say "Load phoshoru... er... soft
> ordnance."

  I know that players like lots of letters on the ammo, but that gives the
Referee an additional 'push' to use at them: Use of illegal ammunition.
The bad guys will of course always use the most effective ammo available,
so the PCs will either be at a disadvantage or run afoul of the law, which
will lead to later disadvantages.

  Then there is the question of the Lawlevel on the ammo. Very 'fun' ammo might
not be available on Lawlevels >0 (note that exploding rounds are illegal at
LL >0. This means that HEAT for the snub pistol and HE for the ACR is hard
to find.) 
  Zhodani Thought Police, Solomani Solsecs, Vargr pirates and K'Kree militant
vegans always have large supplies of such ammo, though:)
  
> | Marc A. Volovic -                       Procrastinator and do-no-gooder|

- -bertil-

"This was supposed to be a COVERT extraction!"
"Shuddup and keep firing!"
- -- 
"Det a"r en Svensk grej. Du skulle inte fo"rsta^..."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2844
Date:     Wed, 4 Sep 91 13:08:30 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Back from the Worldcon

I'm back from the World Science Fiction Convention, and I'm still catching
up on the last few days worth of TML traffic.  If you haven't heard a response
from me on some outstanding letter by the end of the week, send me a reminder.

Thanks!

Tired and brain-fried,

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2845
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 91 13:13:23 EDT
From: Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Food for thought

For those of you who wonder about what technology is handy at various
TLs, here's a little tidbit I picked up from an educational-supply 
catalog this arvo at lunch. For $300, you can buy what I believe is
the world's smallest practical visible-beam laser so far, a unit the
size of a pen weighing about 100 grams that uses AAAA batteries to
produce a 4 milliwatt beam with an easily visible red dot that has
a spread of approximately 1 per 2500 (yielding a 75mm spot at 100
meters). And I have no idea how much of the cost is the 24k gold
casing they sell it in....

metlay

Come ON, people! Try to get a Horde of yourselves!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2846
Subject: Tech Levels
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 91 22:11:56 -0700
From: bart@cs.uoregon.edu

In TML biweekly V19#5 msg 2845 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU writes:
> For those of you who wonder about what technology is handy at various
> TLs, here's a little tidbit I picked up from an educational-supply 
> catalog this arvo at lunch. For $300, you can buy what I believe is
> the world's smallest practical visible-beam laser so far
...

So here's one I've been wondering about for a while.  Traveller
has been around for 10 years or so now.  We all know that
"Knowledge doubles every N years," with N some
impressive-sounding small integer :-).  So, when do we bump the
TL of "modern-day" Earth?  There's sure a lot of technology
around now that wasn't even 5 years ago.  Maybe an 0.5 TL
increment?

The real questions I'm trying to ask, of course, are:  How are
tech-levels scaled?  Linearly?  Exponentially?  In what
variable?  Some performance measure must be being used for the
technology being rated.  What is this measure, e.g. in
transportation, weaponry, or medicine?

Probably some part of the rules, (with which I'm afraid I'm not
very conversant) make this clear, but it seems to me to be hard
to both justify the assignment in the rules of technology to TL
and simultaneously reason that technology will keep expanding
at the current pace on Earth without taking it through a TL in
the next 10 years or so, if not in the last.

My apologies if Traveller die-hards already all know the answer
to this one...

					Bart Massey
					bart@cs.uoregon.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2847
From: Marc Alexandrovich Volovic <mav@cs.huji.ac.il>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 91 00:09:45 PDT
Subject: Guns, laser guns, laser rangefinders, designators, laser thingamajigs.

 
In TML nightly Volume 25 Issue 6 d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se writes:
 
>  Then there is the question of the Lawlevel on the ammo. Very 'fun'
>ammo might not be available on Lawlevels >0 (note that exploding rounds
>are illegal at LL >0. This means that HEAT for the snub pistol and HE
>for the ACR is hard to find.)
 
  I once saw a situation (luckily, NOT in a game I participated in)
where the players had "ready boxes" for every law level. "Break out the
number 5 box, I'll have 3 units of ammunition." was a remark heard from
time to time. These people solved elmost everything out of the blazing
plasma barrel.
 
In TML nightly Volume 25 Issue 6 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU writes:
 
>For those of you who wonder about what technology is handy at various
>TLs, here's a little tidbit I picked up from an educational-supply
>catalog this arvo at lunch. For $300, you can buy what I believe is
>the world's smallest practical visible-beam laser so far, a unit the
>size of a pen weighing about 100 grams that uses AAAA batteries to
>produce a 4 milliwatt beam with an easily visible red dot that has
>a spread of approximately 1 per 2500 (yielding a 75mm spot at 100
>meters). And I have no idea how much of the cost is the 24k gold
>casing they sell it in....
 
  Can it be "tied" to a pistol or rifle - a laser sight? Doubtful, but
possible. What is the duration of the AAAA batteries for that pen? It
certainly cannot be used as a designator. As for demonstrators - a REAL,
third generation, laser beam sight (made in Israel by El-Op) costs about
$250, is about 6.5 centimeters long and 1 centimeter in diameter. It is
mountable on a pistol with ease, beside, above or under the barrel, and
can withstand recoil...
 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Marc A. Volovic -                       Procrastinator and do-no-gooder|
| mav@LIZARDO.huji.ac.il     Snail: P.O.B. 23114, 91230 Jerusalem, Israel|
|             Dept. of Linguistics, Hebrew University, Mt. Scopus        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                       Fencers do it with rapid thrusts                 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2848
Date:  Thu, 5 Sep 91 02:51:15 -0700
From: mikew@eecs.ee.pdx.edu (Michael Wilson)
Subject: 92F'd to death


Getting way off the subject (traveller) but I believe that the slide
breakage problem the US Army experienced was a result of using submachinegun
ammo (black stripe on case around primer?) in the 92F pistol.  However,
it is interesting that traveller allows substution of ammunition between
submachineguns and automatic pistols (If I remember correctly).  Then
again, with that many worlds, tech levels and gun-makers, a character in
a super-accurate campaign would be nuts to trust ammo bought on a different
world than the weapon.  
- -mikew

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2849
From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1991 08:03:58 MST
Subject: 92f and guns in general and TML prob

One of the features that I like about Traveller is the simple selection
of weapons.  You as a GM can get very explicit in the selection of weapons
in your campaign (i.e. "Do you want to look at a Glisten A24b 10 MM Snub or
an Interstell Arms X91 10 MM Snub?).  If you want to, you can even get into
the used gun market and have all sorts of fun.  For example, I bought a
used Taurus 9mm and shot 3 boxes of ammo through it on my first tryout.
2-3 rounds from every clip jammed.  Needless to say, I was pissed.  I took
the gun back to the store and traded it in for a new Browning Hipower.  
Haven't had a jam since.  I would think that every world manufactures weapons
that is able to.  Basically what I say is that there are Imperial specs
for ammo and each world builds guns to those specs.  Another thing you
could introduce are local weapons only.  Your player finds a nice gun
that does a lot of damage but the ammo is only available from the world
or origin (a good calibre today to show this is the 7.65 Argentine).

Is something messing up on the distribution to the list?  The last few
copies of the TML I have received have been chopped off somewhere in
the middle.


- -- 
Let sleeping dragons lie........                    | The RoleMancer 
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
William Wilson (wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu | wilson@nauvax)
Northern AZ Univ  Flagstaff, AZ 86011

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2850
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Local guns
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 91 11:23:15 MET DST

> From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
> Subject: (2849) 92f and guns in general and TML prob

> Another thing you
> could introduce are local weapons only.  Your player finds a nice gun
> that does a lot of damage but the ammo is only available from the world
> or origin (a good calibre today to show this is the 7.65 Argentine).

  I did something like this once with a Solomani specific gauss-carbine and
gauss-mg (suspiciouly similar to the pulserifles and the harness mounted mg's
in 'Alien':). The PCs managed to get their hands on one of each, and a small
supply of ammunition, *and* they were smart enough to start researching if
they could specially order more ammo from a certain sectorwide ordnance
manufacturer that wish to remain anonymous:)
  Everything went fine, it would actually cost *less* thant what they'd expect,
but after a while they begun to suspect that this company planned to include
these weapons in their normal product line. It all led to a quite nasty verbal
fight over royalties, which ended with the PCs giving the suits the finger and
stomping out, with their weapons, only to find that the company had tried to
frame them as Solomani spys to get it's hands on guns anyhow:)
 
> William Wilson (wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu | wilson@nauvax)
> Northern AZ Univ  Flagstaff, AZ 86011

- -bertil-
- -- 
"Det a"r en Svensk grej. Du skulle inte fo"rsta^..."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2851
From: CDF1@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Date:    Fri, 6 Sep 91 10:23 EDT
Subject: New mail address for me

For those who are interested, I have moved and am now reconnected with the
new internet address of:  cdf1@psuvm.psu.edu

For those not interested... oh well.
+-----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
:       *-=Carl Fago=-*             :                                 :
:  cdf1@psuvm.psu.edu - Internet    : This space under construction.  :
:  WULFGAR - Delphi  C.FAGO - GEnie :                                 :
+-----------------------------------+---------------------------------+

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2852
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 91 11:50:04 EDT
From: Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Laser sights and Tech Levels

Marc, thanks for the info on the El-Op sight. I wasn't offering up the
penlight as a strap-on, just as a demonstration of how small people 
are getting usable lasers these days. 

On Bart's question re TLs, I believe the rules state that a planet gets 
listed at a new TL when any one area hits that TL-- such high tech is
generally a planet's most marketable resource, and it tends to drag
other advances along with it. Personally, I was sitting in the TV 
Lounge at my dorm in Oberlin in 1981, watching the Columbia touch down
after its maiden flight. As the wheels touched down and everyone assembled
began to cheer, I quietly remarked to anyone who was listening, "Hm. Well,
that's it-- we just hit Tech Level 8."

metlay
Horde to tears

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

